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Fraudulent Resumes [message #455014] Sun, 09 May 2010 23:07 Go to next message
usamgr99
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I am an IT manager in the U.S.. Recently, we terminated a few India educated employees due to fraudulent resumes. Because of this, we now use a service to independently verify candidates. However, we find that there is widespread fraud in resumes from India educated candidates. This is taking up too much of my time and company money. Do other managers out there see the same thing? What mitigating steps are you taking?
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455017 is a reply to message #455014] Sun, 09 May 2010 23:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michel Cadot
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And you are surprised you found false resume? Read the forum and you will see how many people ask for certification dumps, how many asks for basic questions, how many are unable to do their jobs.
So nothing weird to have false resumes, this is the purpose of interviews to detect these ones.

Regards
Michel

[Updated on: Sun, 09 May 2010 23:22]

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Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455018 is a reply to message #455014] Sun, 09 May 2010 23:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rahulvb
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usamgr99 wrote on Sun, 09 May 2010 23:07
I am an IT manager in the U.S.. Recently, we terminated a few India educated employees due to fraudulent resumes. Because of this, we now use a service to independently verify candidates. However, we find that there is widespread fraud in resumes from India educated candidates. This is taking up too much of my time and company money. Do other managers out there see the same thing? What mitigating steps are you taking?


1/ Didn't you interviewed them well ?
2/ Don't you think so that is the problem with your quality of interview conducted?

usamgr99 wrote on Sun, 09 May 2010 23:07

from India educated candidates


Lets NOT point to Any Country, This can be done any candidate of any country.


[Edit : Typo]

[Updated on: Sun, 09 May 2010 23:51]

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Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455038 is a reply to message #455018] Mon, 10 May 2010 00:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
djmartin
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[This is a general non-Indian specific response.]

Then you perform the interview over the telephone and they match the resume quite well, you give them the job, they arrive, and you find that they don't sound like the person you interview, they actually don't seem to understand English very much at all, and then you find they don't seem to know what to do either. Thankfully, three months later, after they had qualified for the removal and transfer allowance that had been paid, they took a position elsewhere.

I later worked at the institution from where the person was sourced and found that a fellow country-person was actually the one on the telephone. Next time I will use a video link or a 'Skype' connection.

David
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455042 is a reply to message #455038] Mon, 10 May 2010 00:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rahulvb
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Quote:
I will use a video link or a 'Skype' connection.


This could be Nice Idea. but @ other end Video link might not available. I always emphasize on Interview which revel knowledge of person

1/ Can he justify the work on his resume.
2/ Confidence.
3/ Problem solving.
4/ Analytical skills.
5/ And @ the end Technology.
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455049 is a reply to message #455042] Mon, 10 May 2010 01:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
djmartin
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But is that the person who ultimately arrives to do the work?

David
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455051 is a reply to message #455049] Mon, 10 May 2010 01:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rahulvb
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Yes. and STILL if NOT People are free to file Criminal Charges. and as a matter of Fact they Should. to Set an Example what happnes when someone does such things.
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455057 is a reply to message #455051] Mon, 10 May 2010 01:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rahulvb
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A Simple Check is to Record the telephonic interview Smile this is very simple/effective/cheap solution As you can not change your voice.

and once person is arrived cross check his voice just call on his extn. (Get it Done by HR People Very Happy they are good at it).
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455072 is a reply to message #455057] Mon, 10 May 2010 01:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
djmartin
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I agree, but 'get real', an "ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure". The probability is low that this will happen (although it may increase?). For the legal cost of collecting and storing the audio you may as well store the video and not have the problem. But hey, I have seen a photograph of a particular ethnic group and the 21 people in the shot ALL LOOK THE SAME!! And it was both men and women!!

David
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455087 is a reply to message #455072] Mon, 10 May 2010 02:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rahulvb
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djmartin wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 01:47
But hey, I have seen a photograph of a particular ethnic group and the 21 people in the shot ALL LOOK THE SAME!! And it was both men and women!!

David



Laughing Yes Indeed, but that is called as "Morphing" , and even this is true out of those people how many are in IT , looking for Job and end up with the Technology that you are looking for.



Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455093 is a reply to message #455087] Mon, 10 May 2010 02:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
djmartin
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Whatever. Next time I will use a video conference or have a 'guarantor' sitting in at the other end.

David
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455096 is a reply to message #455042] Mon, 10 May 2010 02:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knw15pwr
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rahulvb wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 00:56
Quote:

1/ Can he justify the work on his resume.
2/ Confidence.
3/ Problem solving.
4/ Analytical skills.
5/ And @ the end Technology.

Hey Rahul. Sorry to say, but you are sadly mistaken in this approach.
There are people who can justify the work on the resume. After all, if you can lie about something in your resume - its not difficult to justify it. And this same, also shows loads of confidence.
Problem Solving/Analytical skills ? - This is the fodder for most young graduates. read some books, mug up the answers, go to some sites that specialise in interview questions - learn them by rote. You have an expert at problem solving.

Why not start with technology ? - This is what you are going to work with.

File Criminal charges ? - And then what ? - If he/she can fake a resume or college certificates, How difficult do you think will it be to fake an identity? The next thing you know, Mr. X has moved on got a new identity and now Mr. A has got a new job -complete with new certificates and a fully loaded resume.

Till then though, id say, God bless usamgr99 and the like.
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455106 is a reply to message #455096] Mon, 10 May 2010 03:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rahulvb
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@knw15pwr , Yes, if we struck in IF and BUT then this is the circle which will never end, if anyone who has done lot of work for 10 years in IT if that person follow approach the approach I have given then 5-7 minutes after starting the interview interviewer will come to know what is the depth of the candidate.( This is what my opinion is!!)

And my question is how many candidate will match with the situation you have given ...may be 1,2,3 or may be none.

Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455109 is a reply to message #455093] Mon, 10 May 2010 03:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rahulvb
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djmartin wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 02:27
Whatever. Next time I will use a video conference or have a 'guarantor' sitting in at the other end.

David


'Guarantor' is Good Idea.
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455167 is a reply to message #455018] Mon, 10 May 2010 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joy_division
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rahulvb wrote on Mon, 10 May 2010 00:28

usamgr99 wrote on Sun, 09 May 2010 23:07

from India educated candidates


Lets NOT point to Any Country, This can be done any candidate of any country.

[Edit : Typo]


I do not think he was pointing out ethnic groups. He was just giving a specific example at his company. I guess he could have left off the ethnicity and just said something foreign or overseas workers.

But David brought up a good point. I n ever even though that the interviewee was a "ringer" answering the questions.

We had foreign workers at my company who teched out well, but once they were here, they were not good. Corporate did the interviews. We got rid of them within the week.
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455196 is a reply to message #455167] Mon, 10 May 2010 11:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mahesh Rajendran
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This is nothing new and folks should not take it personal.
In 1998, I was helping out some HR/Head hunter folks to recruit from Chennai,India.
We just video recorded the whole process. But guess what? Most of them could not "survive" in the field, though they did very well in interviews.
We knew something was wrong.
In 1999, we redesigned the process. Gave 'em an UNIX terminal, asked very basic stuff to do. For example, if they cannot do Vi/EMACS, all their "Unix" experience is fake. Folks who
did even "somewhat" fair where then called for technical interview which conducted by
technical folks.
Later, when I came to US I kinda understood the root issue.
Most of these headhunters/consulting firms simply cook the resume to meet the requirements and force the candidates to comply.
While it is just not confined to "India educated" candidates, sorry to say, most
of them are from that region. I once asked the candidate if she really has the
X years of skill mentioned in resume. The honest answer got her a job, in a different
title/role than for what she applied for.

Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455210 is a reply to message #455196] Mon, 10 May 2010 12:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ramoradba
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Quote:
Most of these headhunters/consulting firms simply cook the resume to meet the requirements and force the candidates to comply.

Thats a Fact.
But in our organisation We prefer Freshers they were more hunger than the Experianced Wink

sriram
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455212 is a reply to message #455210] Mon, 10 May 2010 12:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mahesh Rajendran
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Quote:
But in our organisation We prefer Freshers they were more hunger than the Experianced Wink

That is What we call as sweatshop.
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455215 is a reply to message #455210] Mon, 10 May 2010 12:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michel Cadot
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Quote:
But in our organisation We prefer Freshers they were more hunger than the Experianced

Hmm, seems not to be the same population than in the forum. Wink

Regards
Michel
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455219 is a reply to message #455215] Mon, 10 May 2010 12:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ramoradba
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http://www.citehr.com/7299-experience-verification-check-fake-resumes-3.html Some solutions

sriram Smile
[EDITED by DJM: clean up link]

[Updated on: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:15] by Moderator

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Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455225 is a reply to message #455219] Mon, 10 May 2010 12:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ramoradba
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To be frank In Hyderabad we have so many institutes encourages Fake Experience.
Each and every organisation looking for an Experienced employee for the lowest salary..
We always keep in mind that "Only freshers can became Experienced"
The campus recruitment is like that only
Sriram Smile
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455329 is a reply to message #455225] Tue, 11 May 2010 03:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tahpush
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Invest in a lie detector Razz
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455509 is a reply to message #455329] Tue, 11 May 2010 23:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rahulvb
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tahpush wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 03:31
Invest in a lie detector Razz


And followed by Narco Test Very Happy

[Typo]

[Updated on: Tue, 11 May 2010 23:38]

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Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455939 is a reply to message #455509] Thu, 13 May 2010 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kevin Meade
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The best approach is to make it clear to the recuiting firm that you will not tolerate these situations. No one likes to let a person go for inability to do the job, but that is why we hire contractors, because they are supposed to be able to do the job. I can recall one situation in which one of my teams went through six people before we finally found someone who could as it was said "survive in the field". We got this person after explaining our dis-satisfaction with the talent firm for its inability to produce candidates that could actually do the job for which they had interviewed. Once they understood that we would no longer tolerate getting people who could not do what they claimed, we got interviewees that were clearly a cut above those that came before. This is not meant as a negative comment but suprisingly the two people we got after making our feelings and intentions very clear, were both local Americans with readliy checkable histories who could be interviewed in person, not overseas people. Hmm...

On the whole however, my experience has been much better than yours. I find talent coming from outside the US is composed of people just like those of us in the US. They are for the most part intelligent, eager to work hard, and adaptable. It is true that their actual experience levels do not measure up to local talent, and there is that communication issue with many times having difficulty understanding their "accents"; but I I can only beat my coroporate leaders up so much for trying to save a buck. After all, every company that needs outside help, should have a workforce composed of three parts, regular employees, local contractors, and overseas "asses or the masses". The existence of a readily expandable AND SHRINKABLE workforce overseas gives a company the opportunity to exploit opporunities right away when they appear, and also can protect their regular employee base from layoffs when there is no work.

There are at least three problems with out-sourcing I have come to realize:

1) there is always a restucturing phase that must be experienced in order to balance a workforce that includes out-sourced talent. This ultimately means figuring out how big your regular employee base must be and thus what layoffs must happen. It is just the state of affairs. US companies as a whole have never been real good with planning on what to do with excess labor. Outsourcing offers a solution to that question.

2) out-sourcing is never implemented well because it always seems to lead to the removal of highly valued people. SMEs (Subject Matter Experts) get canned right along with everyone else in their group. There is no attempt made to save this information. This causes real issues long term with system survival.

3) contrary to popular theory, out-sourcing does not save money. From where i am sitting it clearly costs more than if you left things alone. But Bean-Counters often have short term blinders on and do not appreciate the long term cost of knowledge loss. Outsourcing should be about creating a balanced workforce that is capable of responding to maket changes and opportunities quickly, nay very quickely, not about saving a buck today without regard to followthrough in the years to come.

one last comment:

I have become friends with many Indian guys and dolls over the last 10 years. They have all imparted to me the same basic story of the process and trials they go through in order to get here. They are all similar from crap pay to drawn out green card generation. One such example: that young Indian contractor sitting across the row from you, he gets paid dirt. Most contracting outfits in the US do a 70/30 split (70% to the contractor, 30% to the firm). Most overseas firms do the opposite, they do a 30/70 split, and that is on top of an initial fee which is 25% or more less than what the US counterpart firm charges for the same ability. So for a guy getting 50$/hr, the employee would get 35$/hr the firm 15$. For the Indian contractor the math goes the other way, 50$*.75 = 37.50 as the rate split as (30/70) = 11$/hr to the employee, 26$/hr to the firm. Could you survive on 11$/hr to do your job? As you can see because the contracting firms squeeze their employees so badly, they make more than their US counterparts, and still can charge less, all at the expense of the employee.

Don't be angry with the contractor, be angry with his firm, and be angry with your upper management, and be angry with our Representatives in Washington.

Kevin

[Updated on: Thu, 13 May 2010 12:32]

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Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455942 is a reply to message #455939] Thu, 13 May 2010 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knw15pwr
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Amen!

WOW Kevin ! This smiley just about sums up my reaction every time I read your posts. Shocked
Though I wish there was another one like the kind of 'Bowing down in awe and respect'
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455946 is a reply to message #455942] Thu, 13 May 2010 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joy_division
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knw15pwr wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 13:22

Though I wish there was another one like the kind of 'Bowing down in awe and respect'


I have seen it from Littlefoot.

I also hope Kevin composed his post locally rather than typing it in. Could you just imaging the look on his face when hitting the SUBMIT button that he got a server error and hitting the back button and it was all gone. (I'd use your emoticon for that)
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455959 is a reply to message #455946] Thu, 13 May 2010 15:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Littlefoot
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For Kevin: /forum/fa/1578/0/

For a dead server: /forum/fa/1582/0/
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #455961 is a reply to message #455959] Thu, 13 May 2010 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kevin Meade
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OK enough all ready!
Re: Fraudulent Resumes [message #456207 is a reply to message #455939] Sun, 16 May 2010 01:00 Go to previous message
rahulvb
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Kevin Meade wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 11:58

one last comment:

I have become friends with many Indian guys and dolls over the last 10 years. They have all imparted to me the same basic story of the process and trials they go through in order to get here. They are all similar from crap pay to drawn out green card generation. One such example: that young Indian contractor sitting across the row from you, he gets paid dirt. Most contracting outfits in the US do a 70/30 split (70% to the contractor, 30% to the firm). Most overseas firms do the opposite, they do a 30/70 split, and that is on top of an initial fee which is 25% or more less than what the US counterpart firm charges for the same ability. So for a guy getting 50$/hr, the employee would get 35$/hr the firm 15$. For the Indian contractor the math goes the other way, 50$*.75 = 37.50 as the rate split as (30/70) = 11$/hr to the employee, 26$/hr to the firm. Could you survive on 11$/hr to do your job? As you can see because the contracting firms squeeze their employees so badly, they make more than their US counterparts, and still can charge less, all at the expense of the employee.

Don't be angry with the contractor, be angry with his firm, and be angry with your upper management, and be angry with our Representatives in Washington.

Kevin



1/ This is Applicable for all the overseas talent/IT People who are willing to go to overseas to do the Job.

AT least in IT no one can be Force to go Overseas to work on 11/- dollars per hour. they are going on their own.

and AS we live in binary world 0/1 , its up to the person to GO or NOT to go.







[Updated on: Sun, 16 May 2010 01:02]

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